Oh, and guess who moves out of the country if there is no big 3? Toyota, Honda, Nissan and all the other auto companies. Why? Because they are only here to provide jobs for PR reasons, so Americans will buy their vehicles. That's one of the main reasons they overcame the "buy American" bullshit. With no American built cars, there is no reason to stick around. See ya! Were off to Mexico!When suppliers big and small start failing, the flow of parts to every automaker in the country will be disrupted because as suppliers typically sell their products to both American and foreign brands with plants in the United States.
“There’s no question it will hit Toyota, Honda and Nissan too,” said John Casesa, principal in the auto consulting firm Casesa Shapiro Group.
“Many of the small suppliers will simply liquidate because they don’t have the resources to go reorganize in Chapter 11 bankruptcy,” Mr. Casesa said. “They’ll just go away.”
Oh, and Americans who own cars made by the big 3 are fucked. Suddenly parts cost a lot more and the warranties are toast.
Oh, and America will have to pay for a bailout anyway, in unemployment benefits, welfare and arresting and prosecuting all the new people who have to turn to crime to survive. Better than a bailout, though!
Oh, and the Republicans killed the bill because the auto workers union wouldn't cave to their fucked up concessions. Strange, the Republicans didn't ask creditors to make concessions, or dealers, or bond holders, or suppliers. Nope, just the working stiff. You know, the guys who have already made a shitload of concessions.
In its contract last year, the UAW made painful concessions, adopting a two-tier wage structure, such that new employees make just $12 to $15 an hour. The move is projected to bring the American manufacturers in line with their Japanese rivals' non-union labor costs in the near future.Oh, and these are the same Republicans who fought against wage cuts for CEO's and all other upper management during the Wall Street bailout. So, wage cuts for guys making $20 million a year bad, cuts for a guy making $20 an hour good. Yeah, they are working for Jesus on this one.
In addition, the union has taken responsibility for providing retiree healthcare, thereby eliminating one of the last remaining competitive disadvantages for the American manufacturers' unionized workforce as compared to their Japanese rivals.
Oh, and the money was already set aside for the auto companies. Yeah, it turns out they were just taking money that was set aside to help with environmental upgrades. So, it wasn't as much about giving them money, as shifting it over for another use. Huh. It literally would not have cost us a penny.
Anyway, you should always put your ideology over people starving. It's truly what the Lord would have done.
Unfortunately, it appears this is going to backfire on the douchebags in a big way. The latest word is that Bush will tap into the Wall Street bailout to give the big 3 cash. Hey, Republicans, how does it feel to get fucked over by Bush? Pretty great, huh? If Bush doesn't make this announcement in the morning, the stock market is going into free fall.
There are the same fucks who refused to investigate the missing billions in Iraq, who have been spending like drunks in whiskeytown and who have spent billions and billions on Star Wars, a fake missile program. But now they can't part with 14 billion. Please. This is only about polical power and the unions are their enemy. $876 billion on Iraq, Afghanistan and the war on terror, but spending money on anyone in America is a fucking heinous suggestion.
Anyone who thinks the bailout is a bad idea is borderline retarded. Maybe in the best of times, but not when we are staring a depression in the face.
12 comments:
let them fail. no company should exist that is too large to fail.
1 in 10 jobs are related to the auto industry, so yeah, let's let 10% of our economy die.
That should work out great.
How about the Detroit 3 come up with a viable bussiness model. If it isn't profitable, then why do it? They have consistently missed the mark year after year. They haven't made good cars in a long time. The ceo's are overpaid. Gas milage hasn't improved in 20 years. Innovation is stagnant. Having the Government print funny money isn't going to help the coming economic collapse.
They'll come up with a "viable business model" when we create universal health care. That's what keeps costs up and why Toyota and Honda are able to put so much more into research and development, as well as sell their cars for less. It's a huge burden.
Also, take a look at the Volt. It's not like it's a secret.
The vote for cloture was 52-35, with 12 not voting. It would have only taken eight more votes to hit the 60 needed for cloture.
Four Senate Democrats (Biden, Kennedy, and Kerry amongst them) did not vote.
Four Senate Democrats voted against cloture. One of those four was Sen. Reid, and his vote was for procedural reasons.
So, if you get the four non-voting Democrats to vote for cloture, and if you convince the three Democrats who voted against to switch to a vote for (with Sen. Reid not needing to vote against for procedural reasons), then you would have the votes you need for cloture.
Twenty percent of Senate Republicans voted for cloture, while eight Senate Democrats not in the "YEA" column could have made the difference. You can blame the Republicans if it makes you feel better, but the Democrats could have gotten the cloture vote if they all would have pulled together.
Don't worry, though. The Bush White House will now most likely pony-up the cash for the bailout from the existing TARP funds, so you'll probably still see the bailout that you are looking for.
If Bush does that, you will credit him for saving 1 in 10 jobs in America, when Sen. Reid couldn't get seven of his own party members to vote for cloture (not even the actual bill), right?
A cloture vote doesn't mean much. It just assures there will be a vote, so Republicans voting for it could have then voted against the bill. It's a rather meaningless point to assign blame.
You linked to the Senate website that has the link to the roll call for vote 215 (which was a vote for cloture) in the statement in your post that said, "Tonight, Republicans blocked a bailout of the big 3 automakers. In doing so, they risk the complete destruction of our economy," but now you are saying that the same cloture vote "doesn't mean much?"
If the Democrats had come together, with the help of those Republicans who voted for cloture, then the actual bill could have been voted on. The actual bill, unlike cloture, only requires a simple majority.
The Democrats hold the majority, and while some of the Republicans who voted for cloture may have decided not to vote for the actual bill, it is likely that Sen. Reid could have come up with enough votes to pass the bill.
If the result of the cloture vote is "a rather meaningless point to assign blame," then the Senate Republicans shouldn't be blamed for "risk[ing] the complete destruction of our economy."
You're argument is deeply flawed. No, Reid couldn't come up with the votes. But, yeah, it's the four Democrats and not the 49 Republicans who are to blame. It's always the Democrats fault, I guess.
This is obstructionist governing and it's obviously the Republicans doing. Everyone seems to think so buy yourself.
My argument is based solely upon the facts of the matter. You can argue that it is flawed if you would like, but the reality remains that the facts are the facts.
Fact: 60 votes are needed for cloture.
Fact: There were 52 votes for cloture.
Fact: 20% of all Senate Republicans crossed the aisle and voted for cloture.
Fact: There were 4 Democrats who voted against cloture.
Fact: There were 4 Democrats who did not vote at all.
Fact: Sen. Reid was one of the 4 Democrats who voted against cloture, but he did so only for procedural reasons.
Fact: If Sen. Reid could have delivered seven more members of his caucus, then there would have been enough votes for cloture.
Fact: Only 31 Republicans (who are members of the opposition party) voted against cloture.
Fact: Only 8 Republicans (who are members of the opposition party) did not vote at all.
Fact: If you take the 39 Republican NO votes and non-votes out of the 99 member body, you are left with the 60 votes needed for cloture.
Sen. Reid was handed an amazing opportunity; if he could rally his entire caucus, then he would have had enough votes for cloture. Unfortunately for Sen. Reid, he couldn't get high-ranking Democrat Senators Biden, Kennedy, and Kerry to even cast a vote, let alone a vote for cloture. That alone forced Sen. Reid into a procedural vote against cloture.
Senators Biden, Kennedy, and Kerry could have been instrumental in helping their majority leader. If those three senators had voted for cloture, then their clout might have been enough to help move Senators Baucus, Lincoln, Tester, and Wyden to vote for cloture as well.
You, however, would rather blame 39 members of the opposition party (even lumping in all of those Republicans who crossed the aisle to vote for cloture), when the FACT is that majority party in the Senate could have delivered a cloture vote if the majority leader could have rallied his caucus.
Hopefully, if Republican President George W. Bush's administration delivers the $14 billion bailout for the domestic auto industry and the UAW via the TARP funds, the same bailout that couldn't be delivered by Sen. Reid even though his majority caucus had enough members needed for cloture and an up-or-down vote, you will be able to give the president and his administration the credit they are due for providing the bailout that you believe is so desperately needed.
Right, anyway, cloture vote doesn't mean shit. The actual vote is what matters. That is what Republicans are against.
Everyone in America seems to understand this but you.
"Right, anyway, cloture vote doesn't mean shit."
You are absolutely wrong on that. The cloture vote means a lot because, without a successful cloture vote, there is no up-or-down vote on the bill that is being debated. "Everyone in America" who knows how the process actually works "seems to understand this but you."
The vote that took place last night was the cloture vote. Cloture is a vote to end debate on a bill, and it requires 60 votes to succeed. If there is no successful cloture vote, then debate doesn't end and there is no "actual vote." This is why the cloture vote is so important, and why your assertion that the "cloture vote doesn't mean shit" is absolutely wrong.
Again, the vote that took place last night was the cloture vote. There were 31 Republicans who voted against cloture (they are members of the opposition party who don't want debate to end), and 8 Republicans who did not cast any vote (they are members of the opposition party who don't appear to be concerned if debate ends one way or another), leaving 60 members of the Senate who haven't voted.
Now, we have 60 senators who have not had their votes accounted for yet, and 10 of those senators are Republicans who are voting for cloture (they are members of the opposition party who want debate to end so that they can have the "actual vote"). That brings us to 50 unaccounted votes, 31 votes against cloture, 10 votes for cloture, and 8 senators who have chosen not to cast a vote.
One of the 50 senators whose votes haven't been accounted for yet is an Independent who is voting for cloture. This brings us to 49 unaccounted votes, 31 votes against cloture, 11 votes for cloture, and 8 senators who have chosen not to cast a vote.
The remaining 49 senators are all Democrats, and they are members of the majority party. If the Democrats want the bill to come to an up-or-down vote, then all they need to do is join together and vote for cloture. It is an amazing opportunity, considering that a few members of the opposition party have spoken out quite forcefully against the bill under consideration.
Of the remaining 49 senators, 41 decide to vote for cloture (they want to end debate so that they can have the "actual vote"). This leaves us with 8 unaccounted votes, 52 votes for cloture, 31 votes against cloture, and 8 senators who have chosen not to cast a vote.
We now have 8 Senate Democrats, all of whom are members of the majority party, with votes that are unaccounted for (and one of whom is the Senate Majority Leader). Conveniently, we are also only 8 votes short of cloture.
So, at this point, if Sen. Reid can get the other seven Democrats to vote for cloture, then debate will end and the Senate can go to the up-or-down vote on the bill. If the Democrats want this bill to be voted on, then these eight members (including Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, Vice President-Elect Joe Biden, Sen. Ted Kennedy, and Sen. John Kerry) hold the key.
This would seem to be a slam dunk. Eight senators remain, and they are all members of the Democrat party (a party that allegedly wants this bill to pass). Senators Biden, Kennedy, Kerry, and Reid are upstanding Senate Democrats wouldn't let the union workers down, and they certainly wouldn't let Senators Baucus, Lincoln, Tester, and Wyden torpedo the American working man/woman. But that is exactly what happened.
Senators Baucus, Lincoln, and Tester chose to vote against cloture, and Senators Biden, Kennedy, Kerry, and Wyden chose not to cast a vote at all. That leaves us with 1 unaccounted vote, 52 votes for cloture, 34 votes against cloture, and 12 senators who have chosen not to cast a vote.
If this bill is to be brought to the floor again this session, the Senate Majority Leader must vote against cloture before the bill is withdrawn, and that means that Sen. Reid (who did not get help from Senators Baucus, Biden, Kennedy, Kerry, Lincoln, Tester and Wyden) was forced to vote against cloture as a procedural measure.
The final cloture vote ended up being 52-35, with 12 not voting. If it was the actual vote, it would have passed, but cloture doesn't work like that; it requires 60 votes to be successful.
So, that is why when you say that the "cloture vote doesn't mean shit," you absolutely wrong.
Again, Sen. Reid was handed an amazing opportunity; if he could rally his entire caucus, then he would have had enough votes for cloture. A successful cloture vote would have brought this to an up-or-down vote on the bill, and even a tie would have probably won the day for the bailout (because Cheney would have the tie-breaker, and he would have likely voted for the bill that the administration had helped to negotiate).
This was the Democrats to kill, and seven of them did so. Again, you can blame all of the Republicans if you would like (39 of whom were the only ones to actually actively or passively oppose cloture), or you can look at the facts and realize that the Democrats blew an opportunity when 20% of all of the Senate Republicans crossed the aisle to join the majority in ending debate so that a final vote on the bill could be held.
Everyone in America who understands how the process works, and who knows the facts, seems to understand this.
Everyone, that is, but you.
Post a Comment